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	<title>Comments on: Ethics Man</title>
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	<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2008/10/11/ethics-man/</link>
	<description>A Blog About Teaching in Tough Schools in the UK</description>
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		<title>By: oldandrew</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2008/10/11/ethics-man/comment-page-1/#comment-1278</link>
		<dc:creator>oldandrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:59:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/?p=234#comment-1278</guid>
		<description>You now appear to be making points that I have already answered at length (in posts that you have already replied to). I explained here:

http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2008/11/01/needs/

why even something as seemingly enlightened, kind and uncontroversial as feeding the hungry would be a bad idea if used as a method of behaviour management.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You now appear to be making points that I have already answered at length (in posts that you have already replied to). I explained here:</p>
<p><a href="http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2008/11/01/needs/" rel="nofollow">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2008/11/01/needs/</a></p>
<p>why even something as seemingly enlightened, kind and uncontroversial as feeding the hungry would be a bad idea if used as a method of behaviour management.</p>
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		<title>By: DiogenesofSinope</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2008/10/11/ethics-man/comment-page-1/#comment-1277</link>
		<dc:creator>DiogenesofSinope</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 15:27:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/?p=234#comment-1277</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Do you genuinely think that there is no movement to pamper rather than punish the badly behaved?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I wouldn&#039;t be a teacher if my job was to pamper the students who need to find out that their actions have negative consequences.  If you really wish me to believe that we are pampering the badly behaved, please notify me when prisons become theme parks.

Your reflexology example is, indeed, insane - but only because of its link to reflexology.  Let us look at a more scientifically acceptable example.
It is known that lack of breakfast leads to biological effects.  These effects might explain lethargicness or even a lower threshold for becoming annoyed/stressed.  This is not good in class.  If we identified students without breakfast, many of whom happened to be troublemakers, would giving them breakfast be pampering?  Or would it be addressing one of the many factors that can affect their behaviour?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Do you genuinely think that there is no movement to pamper rather than punish the badly behaved?</p></blockquote>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t be a teacher if my job was to pamper the students who need to find out that their actions have negative consequences.  If you really wish me to believe that we are pampering the badly behaved, please notify me when prisons become theme parks.</p>
<p>Your reflexology example is, indeed, insane &#8211; but only because of its link to reflexology.  Let us look at a more scientifically acceptable example.<br />
It is known that lack of breakfast leads to biological effects.  These effects might explain lethargicness or even a lower threshold for becoming annoyed/stressed.  This is not good in class.  If we identified students without breakfast, many of whom happened to be troublemakers, would giving them breakfast be pampering?  Or would it be addressing one of the many factors that can affect their behaviour?</p>
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		<title>By: oldandrew</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2008/10/11/ethics-man/comment-page-1/#comment-1274</link>
		<dc:creator>oldandrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 20:53:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/?p=234#comment-1274</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;I have first-hand knowledge that there are still forms of management and discipline for behaviour in schools. These necessarily involve believing a child to be responsible for their actions, and blaming them.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If you had been paying attention you&#039;d know that it was common-place for children not to be held responsible and their are those who would claim that to hold a child responsible for their own actions is to &quot;displace the blame&quot;.

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;What I am not sure of is that these approaches are working all that well. Students keep on acting badly regardless of the consequences.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Here we go again. First you assume that punishment is taking place. Secondly you assume that it has the purpose of ensuring that nobody behaves badly.

By this kind of logic, nothing would &quot;work well&quot;.

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;While you have published a list of internet comments that have shown that people disagree with you, this is not the same thing as showing that there are many in education who think that children are beyond blame or responsibility for their actions. They could be disagreeing with you on the harshness of your punishments,&quot; &lt;/blockquote&gt;

My punishments?

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;or on your single-mindedness to do anything but blame children for their actions. The very fact that you deny that there are external factors that affect behaviour and in some way mitigate blame could be what exorcises so much wrath against you.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

They wouldn&#039;t invent this strawman if they didn&#039;t object to what I was saying in the first place. The fact that they attack me for opinions I don&#039;t hold, doesn&#039;t show that actually I am not saying anything contentious. It simply shows that a lot of the people who attack me lack honesty as well as manners.

Do you genuinely think that there is no movement to pamper rather than punish the badly behaved?

For pity&#039;s sake, look at the insanity that&#039;s being suggested here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7707019.stm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8220;I have first-hand knowledge that there are still forms of management and discipline for behaviour in schools. These necessarily involve believing a child to be responsible for their actions, and blaming them.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>If you had been paying attention you&#8217;d know that it was common-place for children not to be held responsible and their are those who would claim that to hold a child responsible for their own actions is to &#8220;displace the blame&#8221;.</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;What I am not sure of is that these approaches are working all that well. Students keep on acting badly regardless of the consequences.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Here we go again. First you assume that punishment is taking place. Secondly you assume that it has the purpose of ensuring that nobody behaves badly.</p>
<p>By this kind of logic, nothing would &#8220;work well&#8221;.</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;While you have published a list of internet comments that have shown that people disagree with you, this is not the same thing as showing that there are many in education who think that children are beyond blame or responsibility for their actions. They could be disagreeing with you on the harshness of your punishments,&#8221; </p></blockquote>
<p>My punishments?</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;or on your single-mindedness to do anything but blame children for their actions. The very fact that you deny that there are external factors that affect behaviour and in some way mitigate blame could be what exorcises so much wrath against you.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>They wouldn&#8217;t invent this strawman if they didn&#8217;t object to what I was saying in the first place. The fact that they attack me for opinions I don&#8217;t hold, doesn&#8217;t show that actually I am not saying anything contentious. It simply shows that a lot of the people who attack me lack honesty as well as manners.</p>
<p>Do you genuinely think that there is no movement to pamper rather than punish the badly behaved?</p>
<p>For pity&#8217;s sake, look at the insanity that&#8217;s being suggested here:</p>
<p><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7707019.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7707019.stm</a></p>
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		<title>By: fat-tony</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2008/10/11/ethics-man/comment-page-1/#comment-1272</link>
		<dc:creator>fat-tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 12:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/?p=234#comment-1272</guid>
		<description>I mean that excuses were made for the pupils behaviour and those from poor deprived often in care backgrounds were allowed to come and go as they pleased, tell teachers to f**k off, hit other pupils and the school would do nothing. thankfully the police woud.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I mean that excuses were made for the pupils behaviour and those from poor deprived often in care backgrounds were allowed to come and go as they pleased, tell teachers to f**k off, hit other pupils and the school would do nothing. thankfully the police woud.</p>
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		<title>By: News is Good</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2008/10/11/ethics-man/comment-page-1/#comment-1271</link>
		<dc:creator>News is Good</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 10:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/?p=234#comment-1271</guid>
		<description>[&quot;I have encounteres a number of people in education who like to put children beyond blame. My first year head was one. I left that job.&quot;]

What do you mean by &#039;beyond blame&#039;?  Were the students allowed to do whatever they wanted?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>["I have encounteres a number of people in education who like to put children beyond blame. My first year head was one. I left that job."]</p>
<p>What do you mean by &#8216;beyond blame&#8217;?  Were the students allowed to do whatever they wanted?</p>
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		<title>By: fat-tony</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2008/10/11/ethics-man/comment-page-1/#comment-1270</link>
		<dc:creator>fat-tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 09:41:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/?p=234#comment-1270</guid>
		<description>I have encounteres a number of people in education who like to put children beyond blame. My first year head was one. I left that job.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have encounteres a number of people in education who like to put children beyond blame. My first year head was one. I left that job.</p>
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		<title>By: DiogenesofSinope</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2008/10/11/ethics-man/comment-page-1/#comment-1267</link>
		<dc:creator>DiogenesofSinope</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 21:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/?p=234#comment-1267</guid>
		<description>You have written a string of essays on this theme now.  The theme is &quot;students are not seen as responsible for their actions, and therefore no-one blames them, and therefore no one punishes them&quot;.

I have first-hand knowledge that there are still forms of management and discipline for behaviour in schools.  These necessarily involve believing a child to be responsible for their actions, and blaming them.  What I am not sure of is that these approaches are working all that well.  Students keep on acting badly regardless of the consequences.

While you have published a list of internet comments that have shown that people disagree with you, this is not the same thing as showing that there are many in education who think that children are beyond blame or responsibility for their actions.  They could be disagreeing with you on the harshness of your punishments, or on your single-mindedness to do anything &lt;b&gt;but&lt;/b&gt; blame children for their actions.  The very fact that you deny that there are external factors that affect behaviour and in some way mitigate blame could be what exorcises so much wrath against you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have written a string of essays on this theme now.  The theme is &#8220;students are not seen as responsible for their actions, and therefore no-one blames them, and therefore no one punishes them&#8221;.</p>
<p>I have first-hand knowledge that there are still forms of management and discipline for behaviour in schools.  These necessarily involve believing a child to be responsible for their actions, and blaming them.  What I am not sure of is that these approaches are working all that well.  Students keep on acting badly regardless of the consequences.</p>
<p>While you have published a list of internet comments that have shown that people disagree with you, this is not the same thing as showing that there are many in education who think that children are beyond blame or responsibility for their actions.  They could be disagreeing with you on the harshness of your punishments, or on your single-mindedness to do anything <b>but</b> blame children for their actions.  The very fact that you deny that there are external factors that affect behaviour and in some way mitigate blame could be what exorcises so much wrath against you.</p>
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		<title>By: oldandrew</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2008/10/11/ethics-man/comment-page-1/#comment-1172</link>
		<dc:creator>oldandrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 17:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/?p=234#comment-1172</guid>
		<description>
&lt;blockquote&gt;transgressing a moral boundary&lt;/blockquote&gt;

?

Speak English, please.

The issue in your example is not that we wouldn&#039;t blame Jimmy because he is not responsible for his action, but that we would seriously doubt that a starving child was doing anything wrong by attempting to preserve their own life or health (assuming that it wasn&#039;t at the expense of somebody else&#039;s life or health).

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>transgressing a moral boundary</p></blockquote>
<p>?</p>
<p>Speak English, please.</p>
<p>The issue in your example is not that we wouldn&#8217;t blame Jimmy because he is not responsible for his action, but that we would seriously doubt that a starving child was doing anything wrong by attempting to preserve their own life or health (assuming that it wasn&#8217;t at the expense of somebody else&#8217;s life or health).</p>
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		<title>By: DiogenesofSinope</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2008/10/11/ethics-man/comment-page-1/#comment-1169</link>
		<dc:creator>DiogenesofSinope</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:13:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/?p=234#comment-1169</guid>
		<description>&quot;If Jimmy is to blame then putting him beyond blame is a lie, a fraud.&quot;

Jimmy is a hungry child who stole some food.  This is because his parents are not feeding him.  While he certainly made a choice to steal, and he transgressed a moral boundary, I would not blame him for this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If Jimmy is to blame then putting him beyond blame is a lie, a fraud.&#8221;</p>
<p>Jimmy is a hungry child who stole some food.  This is because his parents are not feeding him.  While he certainly made a choice to steal, and he transgressed a moral boundary, I would not blame him for this.</p>
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		<title>By: oldandrew</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2008/10/11/ethics-man/comment-page-1/#comment-1168</link>
		<dc:creator>oldandrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 19:11:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/?p=234#comment-1168</guid>
		<description>If Jimmy is to blame then putting him beyond blame is a lie, a fraud. It is also dehumanising, because &quot;blame&quot;, justly attributed, is one of those things that all human beings deserve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Jimmy is to blame then putting him beyond blame is a lie, a fraud. It is also dehumanising, because &#8220;blame&#8221;, justly attributed, is one of those things that all human beings deserve.</p>
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