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	<title>Comments on: The First Law of Behaviour Management</title>
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	<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/</link>
	<description>A Blog About Teaching in Tough Schools in the UK</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 23:43:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Newsisgood</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-532</link>
		<dc:creator>Newsisgood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jun 2007 08:06:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-532</guid>
		<description>"For example, University. Yes, many come out able to go to University. That's because it's much easier to go there now than it was (say) 20 years ago, and University education too is dumbed down."


I agree it is much easier to go there, but is it really much easier to get a degree?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;For example, University. Yes, many come out able to go to University. That&#8217;s because it&#8217;s much easier to go there now than it was (say) 20 years ago, and University education too is dumbed down.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree it is much easier to go there, but is it really much easier to get a degree?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-531</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2007 07:51:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-531</guid>
		<description>It's true that every year when results come out, some commentators point out the dubious nature of the result ; the DfES and Pols. then invariably rant on about not doing the children down and how wonderful things are and ignore the rather obvious flaws. It requires honesty on their part.  At present they stick their head in the sand, pretend everything is wonderful, and hope by the time it all falls apart it will be someone else's problem.

For example, University. Yes, many come out able to go to University. That's because it's much easier to go there now than it was (say) 20 years ago, and University education too is dumbed down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s true that every year when results come out, some commentators point out the dubious nature of the result ; the DfES and Pols. then invariably rant on about not doing the children down and how wonderful things are and ignore the rather obvious flaws. It requires honesty on their part.  At present they stick their head in the sand, pretend everything is wonderful, and hope by the time it all falls apart it will be someone else&#8217;s problem.</p>
<p>For example, University. Yes, many come out able to go to University. That&#8217;s because it&#8217;s much easier to go there now than it was (say) 20 years ago, and University education too is dumbed down.</p>
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		<title>By: lilyofthefield</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-530</link>
		<dc:creator>lilyofthefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 22:16:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-530</guid>
		<description>"by producing dropouts who can join the army"

The armed forces are a lot more picky than you think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;by producing dropouts who can join the army&#8221;</p>
<p>The armed forces are a lot more picky than you think.</p>
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		<title>By: oldandrew</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-529</link>
		<dc:creator>oldandrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 12:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-529</guid>
		<description>"Could we produce a menial workforce any more cheaply?"

Yes. Education spending has been increased massively in the last ten years. While a lot of the money has made no difference, it takes an advanced condition of paranoia to believe it was meant to make no difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Could we produce a menial workforce any more cheaply?&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes. Education spending has been increased massively in the last ten years. While a lot of the money has made no difference, it takes an advanced condition of paranoia to believe it was meant to make no difference.</p>
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		<title>By: Newsisgood</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-528</link>
		<dc:creator>Newsisgood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 11:15:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-528</guid>
		<description>"More generally, the idea that it is the secret purpose of the education system to produce uneducated people makes no sense at all. We could produce uneducated people far more cheaply."

Could we produce a menial workforce any more cheaply?  Consider that we could not consciously have a two-tiered system in the current political climate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;More generally, the idea that it is the secret purpose of the education system to produce uneducated people makes no sense at all. We could produce uneducated people far more cheaply.&#8221;</p>
<p>Could we produce a menial workforce any more cheaply?  Consider that we could not consciously have a two-tiered system in the current political climate.</p>
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		<title>By: Newsisgood</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-527</link>
		<dc:creator>Newsisgood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 11:12:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-527</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;"Strangely enough a student's misbehaviour is down to the student. (The clue was in the word "student's".)"&lt;/i&gt;


You appear to have missed this one:
&lt;b&gt;Finally, were the abuses in Abu Ghraib caused by dispositional factors (bad apples doing bad things) or by situational factors (a 'bad barrel' causing otherwise admirable soldiers to torture 'unlawful combatants' according to their orders and training)?&lt;/b&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Strangely enough a student&#8217;s misbehaviour is down to the student. (The clue was in the word &#8220;student&#8217;s&#8221;.)&#8221;</i></p>
<p>You appear to have missed this one:<br />
<b>Finally, were the abuses in Abu Ghraib caused by dispositional factors (bad apples doing bad things) or by situational factors (a &#8216;bad barrel&#8217; causing otherwise admirable soldiers to torture &#8216;unlawful combatants&#8217; according to their orders and training)?</b></p>
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		<title>By: oldandrew</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-526</link>
		<dc:creator>oldandrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:29:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-526</guid>
		<description>"Is it at all possible that a students' misbehaviour could be down to unfair punishments from the teacher, or unfair discipline from the system?"

No.

Strangely enough a student's misbehaviour is down to the student. (The clue was in the word "student's".)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Is it at all possible that a students&#8217; misbehaviour could be down to unfair punishments from the teacher, or unfair discipline from the system?&#8221;</p>
<p>No.</p>
<p>Strangely enough a student&#8217;s misbehaviour is down to the student. (The clue was in the word &#8220;student&#8217;s&#8221;.)</p>
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		<title>By: oldandrew</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-525</link>
		<dc:creator>oldandrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:27:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-525</guid>
		<description>"One could argue that our school system completes it purposes exactly - by producing dropouts who can join the army, bolster the staff of fast food restaurants, clean our floors etc."


We are currently producing plenty of students who are unqualified to join the army. More generally, the idea that it is the secret purpose of the education system to produce uneducated people makes no sense at all. We could produce uneducated people far more cheaply.

"Don't we need an underclass?"

No. An underclass, almost by definition, is a drain on resources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;One could argue that our school system completes it purposes exactly - by producing dropouts who can join the army, bolster the staff of fast food restaurants, clean our floors etc.&#8221;</p>
<p>We are currently producing plenty of students who are unqualified to join the army. More generally, the idea that it is the secret purpose of the education system to produce uneducated people makes no sense at all. We could produce uneducated people far more cheaply.</p>
<p>&#8220;Don&#8217;t we need an underclass?&#8221;</p>
<p>No. An underclass, almost by definition, is a drain on resources.</p>
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		<title>By: Newsisgood</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-524</link>
		<dc:creator>Newsisgood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:14:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-524</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;"What it's really about, I think, is *honesty*. No-one outside the chalk face is willing to admit that the "improvements" in exam results etc. are fraudulent..."&lt;/i&gt;

The daily (and Sunday) papers say this all the time.  Also, is there really a crisis?  Yes, some leave education woefully uneducated - but plenty come out able to get a job or go to University.

One could argue that our school system completes it purposes exactly - by producing dropouts who can join the army, bolster the staff of fast food restaurants, clean our floors etc.  Don't we need an underclass?  (For more on this, read John Taylor Gatto).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;What it&#8217;s really about, I think, is *honesty*. No-one outside the chalk face is willing to admit that the &#8220;improvements&#8221; in exam results etc. are fraudulent&#8230;&#8221;</i></p>
<p>The daily (and Sunday) papers say this all the time.  Also, is there really a crisis?  Yes, some leave education woefully uneducated - but plenty come out able to get a job or go to University.</p>
<p>One could argue that our school system completes it purposes exactly - by producing dropouts who can join the army, bolster the staff of fast food restaurants, clean our floors etc.  Don&#8217;t we need an underclass?  (For more on this, read John Taylor Gatto).</p>
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		<title>By: Newsisgood</title>
		<link>http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-523</link>
		<dc:creator>Newsisgood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldandrew.edublogs.org/2007/06/03/the-first-law-of-behaviour-management-2/#comment-523</guid>
		<description>Following up from your previous comments, oldandrew:

Is it at all possible that a students' misbehaviour could be down to unfair punishments from the teacher, or unfair discipline from the system?
If it is possible, would you still blame the student anyway?  (You have said before that you must presume that the teacher is always correct when a teacher and student disagree).

Finally, were the abuses in Abu Ghraib caused by dispositional factors (bad apples doing bad things) or by situational factors (a 'bad barrel' causing otherwise admirable soldiers to torture 'unlawful combatants' according to their orders and training)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Following up from your previous comments, oldandrew:</p>
<p>Is it at all possible that a students&#8217; misbehaviour could be down to unfair punishments from the teacher, or unfair discipline from the system?<br />
If it is possible, would you still blame the student anyway?  (You have said before that you must presume that the teacher is always correct when a teacher and student disagree).</p>
<p>Finally, were the abuses in Abu Ghraib caused by dispositional factors (bad apples doing bad things) or by situational factors (a &#8216;bad barrel&#8217; causing otherwise admirable soldiers to torture &#8216;unlawful combatants&#8217; according to their orders and training)?</p>
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